From s.marechal at jejik.com Thu Feb 5 03:46:58 2009 From: s.marechal at jejik.com (Sander Marechal) Date: Thu Feb 5 03:54:36 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org Message-ID: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> Hi all, Have you seen this yet? Sorry to pimp myself (I'm the lead architect of Officeshots) but nobody else has posted it yet. ==== Free webservice lets user compare office applications 'Office users can finally see what others are seeing' ~ Maarssen/Amsterdam, The Netherlands, January 30th 2009 The Dutch government program "Netherlands in Open Connection" and OpenDoc Society have announced they are collaborating on an online document factory to compare office suite applications. The free webservice Officeshots.org should be available by the end of February 2009. Users will be able to online compare the output quality of a large number of office suites as well as web-based productivity applications. The collaboration was announced during a well visited ODF conference in Maarssen, The Netherlands. The project is financially supported by a grant from the Netherlands based not-for-profit investor NLNet Foundation. "Thanks to the adoption of open standards like the Open Document Format, the number of productivity applications is increasing rapidly. In a mature market a user should be able to compare the various suppliers transparently." says Bert Bakker, president of the OpenDoc Society. "Officeshots.org will ensure that you do not need to blindly trust a supplier when he claims to support a certain document format. Seeing is believing." "We want to make the differences between the various applications visible and measurable, which will stimulate suppliers to make quality improvements" said Ineke Schop, program manager at Netherlands in Open Connection."Because a user can simply upload a document and see the output of the various applications they get a powerful tool to make quality differences measurable. The service also helps designers to compare the rendering of document templates and letterheads in different office suites. "This helps governments choose the right application and supports the ambitions of the Dutch cabinet to standardise on ODF and PDF for document exchange." Under the "Netherlands in Open Connection" action plan, the Dutch administration accepts and uses the Open Document Format as of April last year. Other government bodies in the Netherlands do so since January 2009. The program is a joint initiative of the Dutch government, led by the minister for Foreign Trade Heemskerk and the State Secretary for the Interior and Kingdom Relations Bijleveld-Schouten. The tool will be multilingual from the start. The web service will launch as a closed beta for members of the OpenDoc Society at the end of February, followed by a public launch planned one month later. From Bart.Hanssens at fedict.be Thu Feb 5 03:59:48 2009 From: Bart.Hanssens at fedict.be (Hanssens Bart) Date: Thu Feb 5 04:19:46 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> Message-ID: <0D0BBAD62239F044A27D2F241C407C74137735AE@MAILCL.yourict.net> Sander, Yes, we noticed, it's a great project :-) By the way, I'd strongly recommend that you - or another member of the project - also post it on the http://opendocument.xml.org/ website. (it's an OASIS community site on ODF products, events and related news, but you don't have to be member of OASIS to post news on it) Best regards, Bart -----Original Message----- From: odf-discuss-bounces@opendocumentfellowship.com [mailto:odf-discuss-bounces@opendocumentfellowship.com] On Behalf Of Sander Marechal Sent: donderdag 5 februari 2009 9:47 To: odf-discuss@opendocumentfellowship.com Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org Hi all, Have you seen this yet? Sorry to pimp myself (I'm the lead architect of Officeshots) but nobody else has posted it yet. ==== Free webservice lets user compare office applications 'Office users can finally see what others are seeing' ~ Maarssen/Amsterdam, The Netherlands, January 30th 2009 The Dutch government program "Netherlands in Open Connection" and OpenDoc Society have announced they are collaborating on an online document factory to compare office suite applications. The free webservice Officeshots.org should be available by the end of February 2009. Users will be able to online compare the output quality of a large number of office suites as well as web-based productivity applications. The collaboration was announced during a well visited ODF conference in Maarssen, The Netherlands. The project is financially supported by a grant from the Netherlands based not-for-profit investor NLNet Foundation. "Thanks to the adoption of open standards like the Open Document Format, the number of productivity applications is increasing rapidly. In a mature market a user should be able to compare the various suppliers transparently." says Bert Bakker, president of the OpenDoc Society. "Officeshots.org will ensure that you do not need to blindly trust a supplier when he claims to support a certain document format. Seeing is believing." "We want to make the differences between the various applications visible and measurable, which will stimulate suppliers to make quality improvements" said Ineke Schop, program manager at Netherlands in Open Connection."Because a user can simply upload a document and see the output of the various applications they get a powerful tool to make quality differences measurable. The service also helps designers to compare the rendering of document templates and letterheads in different office suites. "This helps governments choose the right application and supports the ambitions of the Dutch cabinet to standardise on ODF and PDF for document exchange." Under the "Netherlands in Open Connection" action plan, the Dutch administration accepts and uses the Open Document Format as of April last year. Other government bodies in the Netherlands do so since January 2009. The program is a joint initiative of the Dutch government, led by the minister for Foreign Trade Heemskerk and the State Secretary for the Interior and Kingdom Relations Bijleveld-Schouten. The tool will be multilingual from the start. The web service will launch as a closed beta for members of the OpenDoc Society at the end of February, followed by a public launch planned one month later. _______________________________________________ odf-discuss mailing list odf-discuss@opendocumentfellowship.com http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/mailman/listinfo/odf-discuss From 4a4553504552 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 02:15:46 2009 From: 4a4553504552 at gmail.com (Jesper Lund Stocholm) Date: Fri Feb 6 02:22:28 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> Message-ID: 2009/2/5 Sander Marechal : > Hi all, > > Have you seen this yet? Sorry to pimp myself (I'm the lead architect of > Officeshots) but nobody else has posted it yet. > That sounds amazing :o) Quick question, though (that I could not find an answer to on your site): How will the result be displayed to the user? I can see that visual "prints" of the documents will be available, but will you include recommendations along the lines of W3C CSS/HTML-validation results with guidance to enhance interoperability? An example of this would be application of fonts. Will the system give guidance as "You have chosen to use a proprietary font that might not be available on all platforms and applications. You should use a more generic font like 'Font XYZ' instead to maximize readability of your documents". ? I am looking forward to hearing more about your project. -- Jesper Lund Stocholm www.idippedut.dk From s.marechal at jejik.com Fri Feb 6 02:59:46 2009 From: s.marechal at jejik.com (Sander Marechal) Date: Fri Feb 6 02:58:30 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> Message-ID: <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> Jesper Lund Stocholm wrote: > 2009/2/5 Sander Marechal : >> Hi all, >> >> Have you seen this yet? Sorry to pimp myself (I'm the lead architect of >> Officeshots) but nobody else has posted it yet. >> > > That sounds amazing :o) Thanks :-) > Quick question, though (that I could not find an answer to on your site): > > How will the result be displayed to the user? I can see that visual > "prints" of the documents will be available, There will be multiple output formats which you can choose, though not every office application may support all formats. I want to include at least three formats in the first release: - PDF export - Screenshots - ODF roundtrip The last one means that your document is opened and saved in an application but the format doesn't change. Someone has also suggested adding PDF-print to that (using a virtual printer) list because the results may differ from PDF export. > but will you include > recommendations along the lines of W3C CSS/HTML-validation results > with guidance to enhance interoperability? No, but I must say that it is an excellent idea. This could be worthwhile to add in a future version. For the moment I want to focus on enabling users to visually confirm what it will look like in a different office application. -- Sander Marechal Lone Wolves Foundation http://www.jejik.com From abarrio at ffii.org Fri Feb 6 04:28:59 2009 From: abarrio at ffii.org (Alberto Barrionuevo) Date: Fri Feb 6 04:54:58 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org + multilanguage In-Reply-To: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> Message-ID: <200902061028.59881.abarrio@ffii.org> Hi Sander, On Thursday 05 February 2009 09:46:58 Sander Marechal wrote: > Have you seen this yet? Sorry to pimp myself (I'm the lead architect of > Officeshots) but nobody else has posted it yet. Congrats for our great idea/project! Btw, it would be so interesting to provide the service in different languages, since it could help to the local adoption of ODF in many other countries. What are you planning about that? Perhaps I (and my colleagues) could help with Spanish and Portuguese (thinking that in Iberian-American countries the ODF adoption is a hot matter currently...) For example, Venezuelan Government has just officially adopted/imposed ODF (ISO 26300:2006 -the version 1.0, I mean-), PDF 1.7 (ISO 32000) and the XHTML/CSS W3C standards: http://www.tsj.gov.ve/gaceta/enero/290109/290109-39109-27.html http://www.tsj.gov.ve/gaceta/enero/290109/290109-39109-28.html http://www.tsj.gov.ve/gaceta/enero/290109/290109-39109-29.html http://www.tsj.gov.ve/gaceta/enero/290109/290109-39109-30.html Saludos, -- Alberto Barrionuevo Ex President FFII (+34) 639708494 www.ffii.org For FFII matters, please, contact to President Benjamin Henrion From s.marechal at jejik.com Fri Feb 6 06:57:26 2009 From: s.marechal at jejik.com (Sander Marechal) Date: Fri Feb 6 06:56:20 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org + multilanguage In-Reply-To: <200902061028.59881.abarrio@ffii.org> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <200902061028.59881.abarrio@ffii.org> Message-ID: <498C25A6.6070503@jejik.com> Alberto Barrionuevo wrote: > Congrats for our great idea/project! > > Btw, it would be so interesting to provide the service in different languages, > since it could help to the local adoption of ODF in many other countries. What > are you planning about that? The service will be multi-lingual. I am developing it using the CakePHP which has full support for i18n and l10n. It works using .po files like most FOSS applications. > Perhaps I (and my colleagues) could help with Spanish and Portuguese (thinking > that in Iberian-American countries the ODF adoption is a hot matter > currently...) That would be great. I haven't decided yet how/where I am going to put the translations though. I have put other projects of mine on Lanchpad for translations but I'm not convinced that is the best plave for Officeshots.org as well. Are there other translation communities that you know of where we can distribute .po files for translation? -- Sander From modir at huanga.com Fri Feb 6 07:56:22 2009 From: modir at huanga.com (Raffael Luthiger) Date: Fri Feb 6 08:12:02 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org + multilanguage In-Reply-To: <498C25A6.6070503@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <200902061028.59881.abarrio@ffii.org> <498C25A6.6070503@jejik.com> Message-ID: <498C3376.40306@huanga.com> Sander Marechal wrote: > Are there other translation communities that you know of where we can > distribute .po files for translation? Fedora is using http://www.transifex.org/ You have to check if this is something for you too. Raffael From abarrio at ffii.org Fri Feb 6 13:58:12 2009 From: abarrio at ffii.org (Alberto Barrionuevo) Date: Sat Feb 7 00:21:47 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org + multilanguage In-Reply-To: <498C25A6.6070503@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <200902061028.59881.abarrio@ffii.org> <498C25A6.6070503@jejik.com> Message-ID: <200902061958.12970.abarrio@ffii.org> On Friday 06 February 2009 12:57:26 Sander Marechal wrote: > > Perhaps I (and my colleagues) could help with Spanish and Portuguese > > (thinking that in Iberian-American countries the ODF adoption is a hot > > matter currently...) > > That would be great. I haven't decided yet how/where I am going to put > the translations though. I have put other projects of mine on Lanchpad > for translations but I'm not convinced that is the best plave for > Officeshots.org as well. > > Are there other translation communities that you know of where we can > distribute .po files for translation? Well, we can get a help from FFII and from the OpenOffice.org project I think. Charles, are you listening to me? ;-) That would cover many European languages... Usually, FFII petitions, if popular enough (as usually are) get translated to +20 languages in few days... But in my case, I can only promise Spanish, Portuguese from BR and from PT, and surely also Catalonian, Galician and Basque. Saludos, -- Alberto Barrionuevo Ex President FFII www.ffii.org For FFII matters, please, contact to President Benjamin Henrion From s.marechal at jejik.com Fri Feb 6 10:56:00 2009 From: s.marechal at jejik.com (Sander Marechal) Date: Sat Feb 7 00:32:39 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org + multilanguage In-Reply-To: <498C3376.40306@huanga.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <200902061028.59881.abarrio@ffii.org> <498C25A6.6070503@jejik.com> <498C3376.40306@huanga.com> Message-ID: <498C5D90.60806@jejik.com> Raffael Luthiger wrote: > Sander Marechal wrote: >> Are there other translation communities that you know of where we can >> distribute .po files for translation? > > Fedora is using http://www.transifex.org/ It looks nice but it has the same problem that Launchpad has: It's distro-centric. Although Officeshots will be released under the AGPLv3 it's highly that it will ever get into the Ubuntu or Fedora repositories because it's strength comes from it's central location and contributions from people running conversion factories. It's not the kind of application you'd install on your own server :-) Perhaps the best thing will be to simply install something like Pootle on l10n.officeshots.org and link it from the front page, so visitors to the website can translate immediately. I will have to think about it some more later on. First I'm going to concentrate on actually deliving a usable application. The client-server API is done and I have implemented a basic client to convert files through OpenOffice.org, but there is a lot of work that still needs to be done on the central server. -- Sander Marechal From larsnooden at openoffice.org Fri Feb 6 03:06:51 2009 From: larsnooden at openoffice.org (=?UTF-8?B?TGFycyBOb29kw6lu?=) Date: Sat Feb 7 08:53:54 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> Message-ID: <498BEF9B.7060205@openoffice.org> Sander Marechal wrote: > - ODF roundtrip Please, MS talking points will guarantee failure. Instead try prioritizing ODF compliance (aka full support) in that way the data will become independent of the application. Regards, -Lars From jomar.silva at br.odfalliance.org Sat Feb 7 08:40:50 2009 From: jomar.silva at br.odfalliance.org (Jomar Silva) Date: Sat Feb 7 09:10:01 2009 Subject: Res: Re: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org + multilanguage Message-ID: <541833664-1234014558-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1484615593-@bxe1037.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I may help with Brazilian Portuguese. Best, Jomar ------Mensagem original------ De: Alberto Barrionuevo Remetente: Para:Sander Marechal Cc:odf-discuss@opendocumentfellowship.com Responder a:ODF Discussion List Assunto: Re: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org + multilanguage Enviada em: Fev 6, 2009 16:58 On Friday 06 February 2009 12:57:26 Sander Marechal wrote: > > Perhaps I (and my colleagues) could help with Spanish and Portuguese > > (thinking that in Iberian-American countries the ODF adoption is a hot > > matter currently...) > > That would be great. I haven't decided yet how/where I am going to put > the translations though. I have put other projects of mine on Lanchpad > for translations but I'm not convinced that is the best plave for > Officeshots.org as well. > > Are there other translation communities that you know of where we can > distribute .po files for translation? Well, we can get a help from FFII and from the OpenOffice.org project I think. Charles, are you listening to me? ;-) That would cover many European languages... Usually, FFII petitions, if popular enough (as usually are) get translated to +20 languages in few days... But in my case, I can only promise Spanish, Portuguese from BR and from PT, and surely also Catalonian, Galician and Basque. Saludos, -- Alberto Barrionuevo Ex President FFII www.ffii.org For FFII matters, please, contact to President Benjamin Henrion _______________________________________________ odf-discuss mailing list odf-discuss@opendocumentfellowship.com http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/mailman/listinfo/odf-discuss From s.marechal at jejik.com Sun Feb 8 02:44:57 2009 From: s.marechal at jejik.com (Sander Marechal) Date: Sun Feb 8 02:43:42 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498BEF9B.7060205@openoffice.org> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> <498BEF9B.7060205@openoffice.org> Message-ID: <498E8D79.3070902@jejik.com> Lars Nood?n wrote: > Sander Marechal wrote: >> - ODF roundtrip > > Please, MS talking points will guarantee failure. Can you explain? This hasn't got anything to with MS. I thought it would be very useful to know what happens if you send someone a document, they edit it and then send it back to you. It's quite a common usecase for office documents (or else we could all be using PDF :-) > Instead try prioritizing ODF compliance (aka full support) in that way > the data will become independent of the application. How would I do that in the current setup of Officeshots.org? -- Sander From lars at umich.edu Sun Feb 8 06:25:56 2009 From: lars at umich.edu (=?UTF-8?B?TGFycyBOb29kw6lu?=) Date: Sun Feb 8 06:26:08 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498E8D79.3070902@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> <498BEF9B.7060205@openoffice.org> <498E8D79.3070902@jejik.com> Message-ID: <498EC144.7090003@umich.edu> Sander Marechal wrote: > Lars Nood?n wrote: >> Sander Marechal wrote: >>> - ODF roundtrip >> Please, MS talking points will guarantee failure. > > Can you explain? This hasn't got anything to with MS. It certainly does. It is part of the 4+ year series of canards from MS and wastes your time worrying about stuff other than making *your* program work well. > ... I thought it would > be very useful to know what happens if you send someone a document, they > edit it and then send it back to you. ODF is a format, not a program. Make your program fully support ODF and the rest takes care of itself. As to what happens with the other programs, that's their problem. If you want to know what happens if you open ODF with MSO, then be warned that if you save the file again, it will be more or less destroyed. However, again, that is not your problem, your problem is to ensure that your program supports ODF. Again, it's about compliance with the format's specification. You might coordinate with KOffice, OpenOffice, Symphony and GoogleDocs in regards to setting a priority and roadmap for compliance. > It's quite a common usecase for > office documents (or else we could all be using PDF :-) See above. Anyway PDF is for paper that hasn't happened yet and does not fill the same, or even similar, niche as ODF. >> Instead try prioritizing ODF compliance (aka full support) in that way >> the data will become independent of the application. > > How would I do that in the current setup of Officeshots.org? Try the compliance and test suite: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument_Compliance_Testing http://testsuite.opendocumentfellowship.com/ Regards, -Lars From s.marechal at jejik.com Sun Feb 8 18:34:43 2009 From: s.marechal at jejik.com (Sander Marechal) Date: Sun Feb 8 18:33:26 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498EC144.7090003@umich.edu> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> <498BEF9B.7060205@openoffice.org> <498E8D79.3070902@jejik.com> <498EC144.7090003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <498F6C13.6040501@jejik.com> Lars Nood?n wrote: > Sander Marechal wrote: >> Lars Nood?n wrote: >>> Sander Marechal wrote: >>>> - ODF roundtrip >>> Please, MS talking points will guarantee failure. >> Can you explain? This hasn't got anything to with MS. > > It certainly does. It is part of the 4+ year series of canards from MS > and wastes your time worrying about stuff other than making *your* > program work well. > >> ... I thought it would >> be very useful to know what happens if you send someone a document, they >> edit it and then send it back to you. > > ODF is a format, not a program. Make your program fully support ODF and > the rest takes care of itself. As to what happens with the other > programs, that's their problem. Uh, did you understand what my program does? My program doesn't do ODF. My program shows how other programs do ODF. It's brosershots.org for office applications that support ODF. Upload your document. Select a dozen office apps like OOo, KOffice, MS-Office, Zimbra, etcetera and see how your document looks, render, prints and saves in those suites. -- Sander Marechal From 4a4553504552 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 04:34:43 2009 From: 4a4553504552 at gmail.com (Jesper Lund Stocholm) Date: Mon Feb 9 04:40:38 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> Message-ID: Hi Sander, Another thing just ocurred to me. You should note on your site, that any screenshots, PDF-dumps etc only provide indications for "visual interoperability". Even though documents appear perfectly similar, fields, embedded documents etc might be lost when loading them in another application. In Fall 2007 I participated in some interop work for the Danish National Telecom Agency regarding interop using translators and one of the findings we identified was just this - documents looked fine but e.g. fields and embedded objects were lost. Jesper Lund Stocholm www.idippedut.dk WG4 2009/2/6 Sander Marechal : > Jesper Lund Stocholm wrote: >> 2009/2/5 Sander Marechal : >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Have you seen this yet? Sorry to pimp myself (I'm the lead architect of >>> Officeshots) but nobody else has posted it yet. >>> >> >> That sounds amazing :o) > > Thanks :-) > >> Quick question, though (that I could not find an answer to on your site): >> >> How will the result be displayed to the user? I can see that visual >> "prints" of the documents will be available, > > There will be multiple output formats which you can choose, though not > every office application may support all formats. I want to include at > least three formats in the first release: > > - PDF export > - Screenshots > - ODF roundtrip > > The last one means that your document is opened and saved in an > application but the format doesn't change. Someone has also suggested > adding PDF-print to that (using a virtual printer) list because the > results may differ from PDF export. > >> but will you include >> recommendations along the lines of W3C CSS/HTML-validation results >> with guidance to enhance interoperability? > > No, but I must say that it is an excellent idea. This could be > worthwhile to add in a future version. For the moment I want to focus on > enabling users to visually confirm what it will look like in a different > office application. > > -- > Sander Marechal > Lone Wolves Foundation > http://www.jejik.com > _______________________________________________ > odf-discuss mailing list > odf-discuss@opendocumentfellowship.com > http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/mailman/listinfo/odf-discuss > > From Bart.Hanssens at fedict.be Mon Feb 9 04:57:21 2009 From: Bart.Hanssens at fedict.be (Hanssens Bart) Date: Mon Feb 9 04:57:30 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com><498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> Message-ID: <0D0BBAD62239F044A27D2F241C407C74137D4F1C@MAILCL.yourict.net> Jesper, That's correct (and although the translators are now far better than in 2007, they are still not perfect) Nevertheless, visual interop is already a great start, since - for instance - like Florian pointed out, some implementations calculate things like borders 'from the inside', while others do it 'from the outside' (since the current spec isn't always all that clear about rendering) Spotting these issues and discussing them - for instance - (shameless plug) on the OASIS http://opendocument.xml.org/forum or the oic-comment list would be a good start to document these glitches and tighten the next versions of the ODF spec. So while it can't test behavior, I think that officeshots.org will still be of great value :-) Best regards, Bart -----Original Message----- From: odf-discuss-bounces@opendocumentfellowship.com [mailto:odf-discuss-bounces@opendocumentfellowship.com] On Behalf Of Jesper Lund Stocholm Sent: maandag 9 februari 2009 10:35 To: ODF Discussion List Subject: Re: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org Hi Sander, Another thing just ocurred to me. You should note on your site, that any screenshots, PDF-dumps etc only provide indications for "visual interoperability". Even though documents appear perfectly similar, fields, embedded documents etc might be lost when loading them in another application. In Fall 2007 I participated in some interop work for the Danish National Telecom Agency regarding interop using translators and one of the findings we identified was just this - documents looked fine but e.g. fields and embedded objects were lost. Jesper Lund Stocholm www.idippedut.dk WG4 From lars at umich.edu Mon Feb 9 05:05:22 2009 From: lars at umich.edu (=?UTF-8?B?TGFycyBOb29kw6lu?=) Date: Mon Feb 9 05:06:19 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> Message-ID: <498FFFE2.5030601@umich.edu> Keep the eye on the ball. Blather about "interoperability" steers work away from the very method, compliance, that enables it. Make your application compliant with the *standard* and the "interoperability" takes care of itself. That is proven time and again. The OpenDocument compliance testing suite can be found on OASIS' wiki: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument_Compliance_Testing The OpenDocument Validator (to test your output) can be found here: http://tools.odftoolkit.org/odfvalidator/ See an example: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9000481 Everything else is a waste of time, such as we see below. Jesper Lund Stocholm wrote: > ... Even though > documents appear perfectly similar, fields, embedded documents etc > might be lost when loading them in another application. Well of course, if that other application is specifically designed to destroy the documents: http://www.pcworld.com/article/155999/group_2008_progress_shows_odf_will_prevail.html And : On load, Office 2007 SP2 will simply ignore the unsupported elements and attributes in ODF files. We do not attempt to round trip unsupported elements and attributes, they will be removed from the ODF file if you resave it using Office 2007 SP2. http://google.com/search?q=cache:_mIR5xSI01cJ:blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/archive/2008/12/16/odf-implementation-notes-for-office-2007-sp2.aspx+http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/archive/2008/12/16/odf-implementation-notes-for-office-2007-sp2.aspx&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=fi&client=firefox-a Regards -Lars From 4a4553504552 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 05:32:50 2009 From: 4a4553504552 at gmail.com (Jesper Lund Stocholm) Date: Mon Feb 9 05:39:01 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <0D0BBAD62239F044A27D2F241C407C74137D4F1C@MAILCL.yourict.net> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> <0D0BBAD62239F044A27D2F241C407C74137D4F1C@MAILCL.yourict.net> Message-ID: 2009/2/9 Hanssens Bart : > Spotting these issues and discussing them - for instance - (shameless > plug) on the OASIS http://opendocument.xml.org/forum or the oic-comment > list would be a good start to document these glitches and tighten the > next versions of the ODF spec. > > So while it can't test behavior, I think that officeshots.org will still > be of great value :-) I completely agree. My reason for mentioning it was to have it included in some sort of "disclaimer" on the website or in guidance after testing documents. The last thing anyone of us want is to have users complain "I can't believe it doesn't work - the results from officeshots.org were fine" for cases where e.g. the embedded object is removed but the visual representation of it in the document is preserved using the included graphical representation in the ODF-package ... rendering them visually identical but functionally flawed. Jesper Lund Stocholm www.idippedut.dk WG4 From 4a4553504552 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 05:41:19 2009 From: 4a4553504552 at gmail.com (Jesper Lund Stocholm) Date: Mon Feb 9 05:41:23 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498FFFE2.5030601@umich.edu> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> <498FFFE2.5030601@umich.edu> Message-ID: 2009/2/9 Lars Nood?n : > And : > ? ? ? ?On load, Office 2007 SP2 will simply ignore the > ? ? ? ?unsupported elements and attributes in ODF files. > ? ? ? ?We do not attempt to round trip unsupported elements > ? ? ? ?and attributes, they will be removed from the ODF > ? ? ? ?file if you resave it using Office 2007 SP2. Yes - and that is why we should expect nothing less than full support for ODF in Microsoft Office. I don't care if they can't map all of ODF to OOXML - having the most widely used Office application loose information when roundtripping ODF-documents is simply unaccceptable. Jesper Lund Stocholm www.idippedut.dk WG4 From abarrio at ffii.org Mon Feb 9 07:54:00 2009 From: abarrio at ffii.org (Alberto Barrionuevo) Date: Mon Feb 9 07:54:09 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498FFFE2.5030601@umich.edu> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498FFFE2.5030601@umich.edu> Message-ID: <200902091354.00875.abarrio@ffii.org> On Monday 09 February 2009 11:05:22 Lars Nood?n wrote: > Everything else is a waste of time, such as we see below. > > Jesper Lund Stocholm wrote: > > ... Even though > > documents appear perfectly similar, fields, embedded documents etc > > might be lost when loading them in another application. > > Well of course, if that other application is specifically designed to > destroy the documents: > > http://www.pcworld.com/article/155999/group_2008_progress_shows_odf_will_pr >evail.html > > And : > ????????On load, Office 2007 SP2 will simply ignore the > ????????unsupported elements and attributes in ODF files. > ????????We do not attempt to round trip unsupported elements > ????????and attributes, they will be removed from the ODF > ????????file if you resave it using Office 2007 SP2. We need to preserve both things: - Exterior aspect - Interior data So any service/application that test/audit one or both of them will be so useful. Saludos, -- Alberto Barrionuevo Ex President FFII www.ffii.org For FFII matters, please, contact to President Benjamin Henrion From s.marechal at jejik.com Mon Feb 9 09:48:03 2009 From: s.marechal at jejik.com (Sander Marechal) Date: Mon Feb 9 09:46:50 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498FFFE2.5030601@umich.edu> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <498BEDF2.7060400@jejik.com> <498FFFE2.5030601@umich.edu> Message-ID: <49904223.8050102@jejik.com> Lars Nood?n wrote: > Jesper Lund Stocholm wrote: >> ... Even though >> documents appear perfectly similar, fields, embedded documents etc >> might be lost when loading them in another application. > > Well of course, if that other application is specifically designed to > destroy the documents: Which can be shown quite well using the roundtrip feature of Officeshots.org. It can show (ideally) that every office application works fine with every other office application except for MS-Office. -- Sander Marechal From brucevdkooij at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 08:20:42 2009 From: brucevdkooij at gmail.com (Bruce van der Kooij) Date: Wed Feb 11 08:20:56 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <4992CD97.4000500@gmail.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> <4992CD97.4000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4992D0AA.4070608@gmail.com> Bruce van der Kooij wrote: > Is there a public source code repository anywhere? Should have looked closer. Found the details on the officeshots mailing list.[1] Best regards, Bruce References: [1] http://lists.opendocsociety.org/pipermail/officeshots/2009-February/000000.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 260 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/pipermail/odf-discuss/attachments/20090211/355f5d02/signature.pgp From brucevdkooij at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 08:07:35 2009 From: brucevdkooij at gmail.com (Bruce van der Kooij) Date: Wed Feb 11 08:36:09 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Officeshots.org In-Reply-To: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> References: <498AA782.9020507@jejik.com> Message-ID: <4992CD97.4000500@gmail.com> Sander Marechal wrote: > Have you seen this yet? Sorry to pimp myself (I'm the lead architect of > Officeshots) but nobody else has posted it yet. Is there a public source code repository anywhere? Best regards, Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 260 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/pipermail/odf-discuss/attachments/20090211/15c2cf17/signature.pgp From blair3b at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 11:57:30 2009 From: blair3b at gmail.com (Blair Binney) Date: Wed Feb 25 02:36:06 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Problem with Opendocument Viewer... Message-ID: <000d01c98ac7$2a46d560$074a4c09@b255262a> Ok, so I installed successfully in Windows XP, opened the program, selected the ODP file from Lotus Symphony Open Office and got the following message... XML Parsing Error: undefined entity Location: chrome://mozapps/content/downloads/unknownContentType.xul Line Number 28, Column 18: &intro.label; -----------------^ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/pipermail/odf-discuss/attachments/20090209/c2d28f20/attachment.html From kennyho.adsl at msa.hinet.net Mon Feb 23 09:46:29 2009 From: kennyho.adsl at msa.hinet.net (kennyho.adsl@msa.hinet.net) Date: Wed Feb 25 02:37:35 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] ODF Viewer Error, Please help...... Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ODFViewer_ErrMsg.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/pipermail/odf-discuss/attachments/20090223/515e0aa0/ODFViewer_ErrMsg-0001.jpg From worldlabel at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 20:36:32 2009 From: worldlabel at gmail.com (Russell Ossendryver) Date: Sat Feb 28 20:58:39 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] Thumbs up for open source as UK backs ODF Message-ID: The OpenDocument Format (ODF) has moved an important step closer to widespread adoption by the UK government with the publication of an internal Cabinet Office report recommending its use. http://www.techworld.com/applications/news/index.cfm?newsID=111516&pagtype=all -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.opendocumentfellowship.com/pipermail/odf-discuss/attachments/20090228/b3b31a58/attachment.htm