From abarrio at opentia.es Mon Apr 6 10:26:08 2009 From: abarrio at opentia.es (Alberto Barrionuevo) Date: Mon Apr 6 16:56:13 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] =?iso-8859-1?q?Telef=F3nica_will?= "sell" OpenOffice.org in Spain Message-ID: <200904061626.09227.abarrio@opentia.es> Telef?nica will sell, for 3EUR/month the support of their own version of OpenOffice.org among its corporative customers: http://bandaancha.eu/articulo/6472/telefonica-cobrara-3-mes-licencia-openoffice [ES] The news is important for OOo because Telef?nica has one of the biggest sales force in Spain. I don't know if they have a similar commercial offer for the other countries in Europe and America where they are strong also. Saludos, -- Alberto Barrionuevo, director Grupo OPENTIA (+34) 639 70 84 94 [m] (+34) 91 838 38 58 [t] (+34) 954 32 00 64 [f] O P E N T I A "El l?der en interoperabilidad" www.opentia.com From jelledejong at powercraft.nl Thu Apr 9 06:08:59 2009 From: jelledejong at powercraft.nl (Jelle de Jong) Date: Thu Apr 9 06:09:14 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <49CEC8BF.7000708@powercraft.nl> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49CE5FB2.4050400@powercraft.nl> <20090328202418.GA2503@nexaima.net> <49CEC8BF.7000708@powercraft.nl> Message-ID: <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> Jelle de Jong wrote: > M. Fioretti wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 18:34:42 PM +0100, Jelle de Jong wrote: >> >>>> http://mfioretti.com/how-file-formats-can-be-used-favor-or-hamper-innovation-active-citizenship-and-really-free-markets >>>> Feedback is welcome, of course! >>> Thanks! Excellent examples and lots of background information. >> Thanks. Speaking of open formats, I've seen at tuxcrafter.net that you >> are interested in DjVu, so you may also like this other link: >> http://mfioretti.com/djvu-saving-our-paper-heritage > > Thanks again for the other link[1] and yes that website[2] is indeed > mine, and I am very interested in DjVu but I am also worried about the > non-royalty free patents[2] on the algorithms used by the DjVu tools. The > commercial tools also have far better compression implementations. I > currently recommend the GPL tools for people using Linux environments and > do lots of digital archiving. > > Is there a way to completely free (as in freedom) the DjVu format and > find a way to gather some money to improve the GPL tools (especially for > color compression) as an community thing? I got the feeling DjVu is > depending to much on the company behind it and that is not good...? > > The thing is I use DjVu for scanned documents and in lineart mode I > have astonishing compression and speed rates compared with PDF. And I can > always convert DjVu back to PDF. with GPL compliant tools. I access my > scanned documents over remote network and I can have 200 pages in less > then 7MB (600dpi A4 lineart) and with evince it loads very fast. This > same document will be 80MB in PS and freaking 55MB in PDF. So you can > see it saves a lot of money in bandwidth and processing time. > > A single page DjVu files is around 43.5kB in lineart 600dpi A4, and the > same pages is about 497kB in PDF1.4 so that 1130% larger more then 11x > the DjVu size .... > > But then the issue remains there is no common accepted DjVu or document > reader for Microsoft Windows or Macintosh users. (chicken egg problem) > When using Mozialla Firefox it will not automatic download a DjVu viewer, > this would be something I would like to see. > > I also created an efficient multi-language cli automated document > scanning tool[4] that uses both DjVu and/or PDF, it will be accepted in > Debian within a few months since I have a sponsor for it, but still need > to do some fine tuning. > > [1] http://mfioretti.com/djvu-saving-our-paper-heritage > [2] http://www.tuxcrafter.net/ > [3] http://djvu.sourceforge.net/licensing.html > [4] http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/p/pct-scanner-scripts/ > https://secure.powercraft.nl/svn/packages/trunk/source/pct-scanner-scripts/ > I would like to follow-up on this mail, because the issue is still nagging me. I want DjVu to become free, so it can be used in all mobile devices like e readers without patent cost etcetera or other hided license constructions. (both for viewing and compression) The issue remains, what can we do as community... Any thoughts? Best regards, Jelle de Jong From marbux at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 06:32:26 2009 From: marbux at gmail.com (marbux) Date: Thu Apr 9 06:53:48 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49CE5FB2.4050400@powercraft.nl> <20090328202418.GA2503@nexaima.net> <49CEC8BF.7000708@powercraft.nl> <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> Message-ID: <2c60d980904090332u3ec81e12i98346b498ea9afa5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Jelle de Jong wrote: > I would like to follow-up on this mail, because the issue is still > nagging me. I want DjVu to become free, so it can be used in all mobile > devices like e readers without patent cost etcetera or other hided > license constructions. (both for viewing and compression) > > The issue remains, what can we do as community... > > Any thoughts? I don't know but this page might shed some bit of light. . -- Universal Interoperability Council From mfioretti at nexaima.net Thu Apr 9 07:22:23 2009 From: mfioretti at nexaima.net (M. Fioretti) Date: Thu Apr 9 07:23:38 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49CE5FB2.4050400@powercraft.nl> <20090328202418.GA2503@nexaima.net> <49CEC8BF.7000708@powercraft.nl> <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> Message-ID: <20090409112223.GV3065@nexaima.net> On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 12:08:59 PM +0200, Jelle de Jong wrote: > > Is there a way to completely free (as in freedom) the DjVu format > > and find a way to gather some money to improve the GPL tools > > (especially for color compression) as an community thing? I got > > the feeling DjVu is depending to much on the company behind it and > > that is not good...? Jelle, I had not forgotten your request, sorry, it just kept remaining behind new things coming in. I have not investigated DjVu after that article of mine, not recently that is. However, being obsessedd by free formats as I am, when I wrote it I did check, and I remember that the conclusion was that you could "do", that is create and read, DjVu files with 100% open source tools, so I went ahead. Now, if today there are some (recent?) variants of DjVu which get better compression but are proprietary, or if DjVu can technically contain non-free objects... that is certainly possible, but as I said I am not really up to date and must absolutely close some other projects before investigating again on this. >From what you tell me, it looks like DjVu may have fallen victim of the same "hidden traps" problem I denounced a couple of years ago about ODF: http://robertogaloppini.net/2007/04/01/file-format-hidden-traps-in-opendocument-or-any-other-open-standard-and-how-to-avoid-them/ if that's the case, then the only solution is the same I outlined for ODF in that article. HTH, Marco -- Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you: http://digifreedom.net/node/84 From abarrio at ffii.org Thu Apr 9 07:27:53 2009 From: abarrio at ffii.org (Alberto Barrionuevo) Date: Thu Apr 9 07:33:15 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <2c60d980904090332u3ec81e12i98346b498ea9afa5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> <2c60d980904090332u3ec81e12i98346b498ea9afa5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200904091327.53867.abarrio@ffii.org> On Thursday 09 April 2009 12:32:26 marbux wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Jelle de Jong wrote: > > I would like to follow-up on this mail, because the issue is still > > nagging me. I want DjVu to become free, so it can be used in all mobile > > devices like e readers without patent cost etcetera or other hided > > license constructions. (both for viewing and compression) > > > > The issue remains, what can we do as community... 1) Not to use it until their patents are licensed under royalty free terms. 2) Develop an alternative format with similar features. > > > > Any thoughts? > > I don't know but this page might shed some bit of light. > . Yes, this license is so tricky. They are releasing their patents for a limited set of features of the format and *only* for GPL2 software. For them is a way that the (stupid) free software world promotes their format for free while they make cash with the rest of the market via their software patents. Sorry, but but we should NOT enter such game of closed formats... -- Alberto Barrionuevo Ex President FFII www.ffii.org For FFII matters, please, contact to President Benjamin Henrion From jza at openoffice.org Thu Apr 9 22:54:18 2009 From: jza at openoffice.org (Alexandro Colorado) Date: Thu Apr 9 22:54:56 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] ODF-Next? Message-ID: I wonder if anyone on the list is currently participating in the ODF-Next project. I am gathering information on this initiative and want to have an update on the project. Regards. -- Alexandro Colorado CoLeader of OpenOffice.org ES http://es.openoffice.org From marbux at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 01:47:30 2009 From: marbux at gmail.com (marbux) Date: Fri Apr 10 01:47:33 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] ODF-Next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c60d980904092247k4b259b13v897e90f59ee2b1ae@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote: > I wonder if anyone on the list is currently participating in the ODF-Next > project. I am gathering information on this initiative and want to have an > update on the project. Regards. I'm no longer on the TC but am subscribed to the public comment list used by that ODF-Next project. Easily the most interesting public comment for ODF-Next to fly by is the following: Doug Shepers, Requirement: SVG Integration, OASIS office-comment mailing list (26 March 2009), ; see also World Wide Web Consortium, SVG in ODF (page last modified 26 March 2009), . Bob Jolliffe has a leadership role in ODF-Next and I suggest that you contact him for further information on the project. His email address is here. . Best regards, Paul E. Merrell, J.D. (Marbux) -- Universal Interoperability Council From robert_weir at us.ibm.com Fri Apr 10 10:29:57 2009 From: robert_weir at us.ibm.com (robert_weir@us.ibm.com) Date: Fri Apr 10 10:28:47 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] ODF-Next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm involved. Essentially there are three steps: 1) Solicit ideas for ODF-Next, from the public and from TC members 2) The ODF-Next Subcommittee reads over the ideas, categorizing and prioritizes them and writes up a report with its recommendations on the themes and priorities for ODF-Next. 3) The ODF TC reviews and approves this report, possibly with modifications. We're currently at step #1. The intent is for this to be a background activity for the TC, to solicit comments while we are completing the ODF 1.2 draft. Then, when that draft is submitted for public review, which lasts at least 60 days, we could work on writing up the report.. You can see the comments submitted to date in the TC's comment list archive here: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/ Note that the ODF-Next requirements are inter-mixed with ODF 1.0/1.1 comments and comments on the ODF 1.2 draft. Generally the ODF-Next comments have the word "Requirement" in the subject. Regards, -Rob odf-discuss-bounces@opendocumentfellowship.com wrote on 04/09/2009 10:54:18 PM: > > I wonder if anyone on the list is currently participating in the ODF-Next > project. I am gathering information on this initiative and want to have an > update on the project. Regards. > From mike.carden at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 01:14:09 2009 From: mike.carden at gmail.com (Mike Carden) Date: Sat Apr 25 01:39:59 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <200904091327.53867.abarrio@ffii.org> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> <2c60d980904090332u3ec81e12i98346b498ea9afa5@mail.gmail.com> <200904091327.53867.abarrio@ffii.org> Message-ID: <24dc89620904242214u1adc7d18q64cd1c4879425169@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Alberto Barrionuevo wrote: > Yes, this license is so tricky. They are releasing their patents for a limited > set of features of the format and *only* for GPL2 software. In the current djvulibre source code there is a COPYRIGHT file that explicitly points out that the code is licensed under "...the GNU General Public License, either Version 2 of the license, or (at your option) any later version." In the /docs directory there is a djvu and pdf format copy of the letter from Lizardtech that makes it so. So it's not restricted to GPL2. Cheers, MC From jelledejong at powercraft.nl Sat Apr 25 04:12:08 2009 From: jelledejong at powercraft.nl (Jelle de Jong) Date: Sat Apr 25 04:12:19 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <24dc89620904242214u1adc7d18q64cd1c4879425169@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> <2c60d980904090332u3ec81e12i98346b498ea9afa5@mail.gmail.com> <200904091327.53867.abarrio@ffii.org> <24dc89620904242214u1adc7d18q64cd1c4879425169@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F2C5D8.7070101@powercraft.nl> Mike Carden wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Alberto Barrionuevo wrote: > >> Yes, this license is so tricky. They are releasing their patents for a limited >> set of features of the format and *only* for GPL2 software. > > > In the current djvulibre source code there is a COPYRIGHT file that > explicitly points out that the code is licensed under "...the GNU > General Public License, either Version 2 of the license, or (at your > option) any later version." > > In the /docs directory there is a djvu and pdf format copy of the > letter from Lizardtech that makes it so. > > So it's not restricted to GPL2. > > Cheers, > MC >From what I heard and understood, the Lizardtech made an explicit exception for the DjVuLibre implementation of DjVu. If I want to make an e-book reader with DjVu support, I will not be allowed to do this without permission of Lizardtech. They have non-royalty free patents on the technologies uses, meaning I have to pay to Lizardtech or make some sort of deal. This does not fit the definition of an open-standard. So people tell me DjVu it's not open and free for everybody. (see the leters from Lizardtech to DjVuLibre) Lizardtech should make an official document that identifies all patents on DjVu and makes them available on royalty-free basis and it should also make the specification about DjVu publicly available. This implies to me it is restricted, or am I wrong here? Best regards, Jelle de Jong From mike.carden at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 04:24:14 2009 From: mike.carden at gmail.com (Mike Carden) Date: Sat Apr 25 04:24:16 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <49F2C5D8.7070101@powercraft.nl> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49DDC93B.4040405@powercraft.nl> <2c60d980904090332u3ec81e12i98346b498ea9afa5@mail.gmail.com> <200904091327.53867.abarrio@ffii.org> <24dc89620904242214u1adc7d18q64cd1c4879425169@mail.gmail.com> <49F2C5D8.7070101@powercraft.nl> Message-ID: <24dc89620904250124l7a113fcr6be8ad849b4a9f28@mail.gmail.com> My understanding of the djvulibre license is that you can use the code for viewing djvu data objects under the GPL. You can use the djvulibre compression code under the GPL. If you want access to the (possibly better, faster, more efficient) encoders that Lizardtech own, you need to pay them some money. Their business revolves around selling products that incorporate patented code. Those patents have been licensed to anyone making GPLed software based on libraries found in djvulibre. I wish more patents could be freed in this way. The original authors of the algorithms and code wanted the format and the platform to be open source and they have received Lizardtech's agreement to let them make the reference implementation available under the GPL. I'm impressed by that. I am guided entirely by the code that I checked out of source control at sourceforge.net. Check it out and have a read. It is interesting that at least one of the committers to the code base of the libre version during the last 12 months is a Lizardtech employee. Cheers, MC From abarrio at ffii.org Sat Apr 25 10:28:53 2009 From: abarrio at ffii.org (Alberto Barrionuevo) Date: Sat Apr 25 10:29:00 2009 Subject: [odf-discuss] [NT] what about DjVu and its patents In-Reply-To: <24dc89620904250124l7a113fcr6be8ad849b4a9f28@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090328104737.GB31779@nexaima.net> <49F2C5D8.7070101@powercraft.nl> <24dc89620904250124l7a113fcr6be8ad849b4a9f28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200904251628.53997.abarrio@ffii.org> On Saturday 25 April 2009 10:24:14 Mike Carden wrote: > My understanding of the djvulibre license is that you can use the code > for viewing djvu data objects under the GPL. You can use the djvulibre > compression code under the GPL. If you want access to the (possibly > better, faster, more efficient) encoders that Lizardtech own, you need > to pay them some money. Their business revolves around selling > products that incorporate patented code. Those patents have been > licensed to anyone making GPLed software based on libraries found in > djvulibre. I wish more patents could be freed in this way. > > The original authors of the algorithms and code wanted the format and > the platform to be open source and they have received Lizardtech's > agreement to let them make the reference implementation available > under the GPL. I'm impressed by that. > > I am guided entirely by the code that I checked out of source control > at sourceforge.net. Check it out and have a read. > > It is interesting that at least one of the committers to the code base > of the libre version during the last 12 months is a Lizardtech > employee. Yes, but without a real complete specification document, an open community developing such specification and a release of the patents covering the format, we are just promoting with open source code a closed format that indeed is not standard. I don't want to participate in such a game for the only profit of Lizardtech... First (real) liberation, second promotion, sorry. -- Alberto Barrionuevo Ex President FFII www.ffii.org For FFII matters, please, contact to President Benjamin Henrion