[odf-discuss] Gnome, Ecma, and what governments (and FOSS?) should have done

[Alberto Barrionuevo]

(sorry for the late answer)

On Friday 02 November 2007 09:48:43 Daniel Carrera wrote:
> Alberto Said:
> > Gnome is participating in the ISO process since the moment that Microsoft
> > can say (and is saying and marketing everywhere) that Gnome has
> > participated in the deverlopment of ECMA-376 (DIS 29500).
>
> That Microsoft can lie about it is not to be blamed on Gnome. Jody/Gnome is
> *not* participating in the ISO ballot resolution process. Microsoft can
> lie, and Microsoft can insinuate in a way that makes people think that they
> are. But it is very unfair to take Microsoft's lie as truth and blaming
> Gnome.

To allow innecesarilly to Microsoft to insinuate this (to give that weapon to 
them) is something that damages us at ISO (I've suffered that, so I know what 
I say). Please, don't give them that chance. There is no need.

>
> > This is a strong argument to defeat
> > our arguments in ISO about that only MS-Office implements OOXML really.
>
> That might be your strongest argument, but there are many more. OOXML is
> clearly designed after one product, it duplicates functionality of *many*
> existing ISO standards (not only ODF) and there is already an ISO standard
> that covers the entire functionality of OOXML.

I've said "a strong argument" not my "stronger argument".
>
> > You will check soon that every marketing document from Microsoft at the
> > ISO members will say soon that GNOME backs OOXML because it supported the
> > creation of OOXML at ECMA.
>
> A marketing problem indeed, and one that I have pointed out myself earlier.
> But let's not conflate that with the believe that Gnome or Jody is
> participating in the ISO ballot resolution process. Please don't confuse
> the issue by inserting things that are not true:
>
> - No, Jody is *not* participating in the ballot resolution.
> - Yes, Microsoft can lie and can manipulate facts in their marketing.
>
> Keep those separate. We'll never get anywhere if you confuse these two.
>
The reality is that they are not separated because Microsoft is taking well 
care of to join them. So, if we can avoid that, please do.

And not, Jody is not participating, but he is influencing with his 
declarations since the moment that Microsoft is bringing his declarations to 
all the committees and saying: hey, check what this important free software 
application is saying against ODF and for OOXML.

Same did Microsoft with the Icaza declarations about the famous "superb" 
standard.

> > One thing is that ECMA committee is composed by Microsoft and its backers
> > (Intel, Apple, Novell, etc.)
>
> I'll note that Intel sponsors the ODF test suite project, and Novell
> sponsors OOo development. The world is not divided into MS supporters and
> opponents.
>
Well, in the OOXML at ISO case, you can influcence positively and negatively. 
There is no mixed result: Or approved or rejected.

> > The name of Gnome in that group
> > helps a lot to Microsoft to get its ISO, since with it Microsoft can show
> > to all the national committees that indeed free software community is
> > backing OOXML,
>
> The ISO decision will not be based on who is cheering for OOXML. This isn't
> a popularity contest. ISO has a set of technical rules that dictate what
> can be an ISO standard. Based on those rules the National Bodies made a
> list of conflicts. The future of OOXML as an ISO standard rests on the
> resolution of those conflicts. Not on how many people cheer for it.
>
Sorry, but you subestimate to ISO/IEC process and rules. The rules at ISO are 
far from to be clear and precise. Just check how easy is to hijack a national 
committee as INCITS/v1, Italy, Sweeden, Portugal, Colombia and many many 
others. Additionally, for your information, the decision in many national 
member states will be *political*. So all the declarations of support of half 
support from the free software community are so influencial.

> > So Jody joining officially in the name of Gnome of course that is helping
> > to Microsoft to get its ISO.
>
> Wrong. OOXML will become ISO if and only if (<=>) the NB comments are
> resolved. Those comments did not include "not enough competitors in the
> ECMA TC45".

These comments include that the OOXML is platform dependent for example. Also, 
do you believe that *all* these comments will be resolved.

Forget that. Microsoft has vetoed already many many of these comments. They 
will resolv as less as possible and will negotiate politically with them to 
change the mind of the few countries that they need to change.

I hope to have changed your opinion of the ISO process. It is far from 
mathematic and perfect...
-- 
Alberto Barrionuevo
Vice President FFII
www.ffii.org