[odf-discuss] Miguel on OXML

[Carlos Moffat]

On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 11:52 -0500, Lars D. Noodén wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Carlos Moffat wrote:
> > *you* called Miguel's article a 'troll' and him personally being part of
> > a 'FUD team MS is running'.
> 
> Yes.  MS appears to be running a FUD campaign.  Trolls and shills are 
> commonly used in such campaigns.
> 
> Yes.  It has every appearance, to me, that he has participated in it.  I 
> realize you have to stand up for your friend there, but step back and look 
> at what he wrote in the context of the others that wrote more or less the 
> same bundle of errors and when.
> 

I have never met Miguel de Icaza. Maybe you're assuming Carlos and
Miguel must know each other?

> > Sure. The arguments he's using are the same arguments of other people
> 
> Yes, and that was my original point.  It's a crowd that has been 
> circulating disinformation, misdirection, errors, and half-truths for a 
> couple years.  There are legitimate criticisms of ODF, but they're not 
> being brought out.  Anyway, isn't the debate supposed to be why Ecma 376 
> is good, or is it just the strategy to smear ODF and leave Ecma 376 
> unexamined?
> 
> He went to a lot of effort to present dis- or mis-information. If the idea 
> were to promote a rational debate, those arguments would be presented in 
> conjunction with facts. Like Rob Weir's blog entry points out:
> 
> "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but they are not entitled to 
> their own facts"
> 
> > who don't think OOXML should be rejected flat out, and that MS applying 
> > getting ISO status for OOXML is a good think.
> > Same as pro-ODF people 
> > like me using the same arguments as laid out in the GrokDoc page or from 
> > the different pro-ODF blogs. What a surprise.
> 
> Which supports my assertion that prominent individuals are conduits for 
> MS, passing material unexamined.
> 
> > However, that doesn't make me a dishonest 'ODF shill', 'IBM shill', or
> > part of any FUD campaign. I just arrived to different conclusions from
> > Miguel's.
> 
> However, if you appeared to be uncritically posting information on behalf 
> of an interest, especially if there appeared to be economic or other ties, 
> then that would most definitely make you a shill.
> 
> ODF is backed by a wide range of industry and other interests.  Ecma 376 
> is backed by those at MS and those boosting MS.  Miguel is in the latter 
> category by his own statement on many occassions since many years back.
> 
> > You have no proof he is part of any MS FUD team. The only evidence I see
> > here is that he find MS's arguments more convincing, that's all.
> 
> Wrong.  don't skip that he appears to be repeating MS misinformation, on 
> cue.
> 
> One of his claims to fame was the experience he has had in the area of 
> applications, data formats and interoperability.  At best, it's a case of 
> really bad judgement.  If you're waiting for a check stub from chairman 
> Gates and notarized statements from four witnesses of good standing, then 
> you're in for a long wait.
> 

Geesh. You can say somebody is part of a "FUD Team", not provide any
proof, and then say proof is impossible to acquire.

> He presumably has enough background that he could have provided legitimate 
> criticism of ODF rather than re-wording a packaged subset of known errors, 
> misdirection and half-truths.
> 
> Or, better yet, rather than taking the MS approach of smearing ODF, it 
> would have been more useful to point out why Ecma 376 is good -- except it 
> can't be done.
> 
> It's just quite annoying that a still prominent individual that once 
> contributed to open projects seems to be participating in a quick 
> smear campaign in larger campaign against open standards.
> 

He still contributes to Mono, which is an OpenSource project. And
Novell, the company he works for, plays a huge role in pushing Linux and
other FOSS projects. I don't agree with their position on OOXML, but you
can't use that to take away their other contributions.

Carlos

> -Lars
> Lars Noodén
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