[odf-discuss] Miguel on OXML

[Carlos Moffat]

On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 10:38 -0500, Lars D. Noodén wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Carlos Moffat wrote:
> > The attitude that bothers me about your criticism and others here is the
> > notion that there's no valid criticism of ODF, and if any is voiced,
> > them it must come from a MS shill. This is ludicrous.
> 
> That would be ludicrous, except that's not what I am saying and not part 
> of my criticism.  Nor has anyone else on the list made that kind of 
> criticism, so I'm not sure where you are pulling that conclusion from.
> 
> Re-read my criticism and follow-up messages.  The omissions and 
> half-truths seem to be circulating as a bundle and their apparent. 
> 'boosters' like Miguel seem to be one means to broadcast them.
> 
> There are two problems here.  The small one is the particular errors and 
> misdirection in the particular instance of Miguel's message.  The larger 
> problem, IMHO, is that his message represents a campaign.
> 

Lars.

*you* called Miguel's article a 'troll' and him personally being part of
a 'FUD team MS is running'. 


> > I think Miguel's post had many factual mistakes.
> 
> Yes, but my initial message is not about the factual mistake in that 
> particular instance of a 'booster' letter, but the appearance that very 
> similar topics, omissions, half-truths and errors seem to be disseminated 
> by many other 'boosters'  It looks more like a smear campaign more than an 
> effort to correct problems with OpenDocument.  Another possible 
> explanation is that it is intended to burn up volunteer time with petty 
> debates.
> 

Sure. The arguments he's using are the same arguments of other people
who don't think OOXML should be rejected flat out, and that MS applying
getting ISO status for OOXML is a good think. Same as pro-ODF people
like me using the same arguments as laid out in the GrokDoc page or from
the different pro-ODF blogs. What a surprise.

However, that doesn't make me a dishonest 'ODF shill', 'IBM shill', or
part of any FUD campaign. I just arrived to different conclusions from
Miguel's. 

> > Part of his criticism seemed, to me, accurate.
> 
> Yes, and as I have written, there is not problem with the parts that are 
> accurate, when separated from the misdirection, omissions and half-truths.
> 
> Recall that even I have criticized OpenDocument on several occasions, when 
> I see it warranted.  For example, there are some deficiences in how 
> metadata is currently handled.
> 
> However, Miguel, for example, has presumably had enough contact with 
> projects like Gnumeric that it is hard to believe that he can accidentally 
> make so many errors in one document on data formats.  And, again, these 
> same errors appear to the be same as those circulated by other MS 
> 'boosters'
> 
> So again, the main issue I am trying to raise is that similar 
> constellations of mistakes, ommissions and bits of disinformation keep 
> popping up around the world, though brought up by those that should know 
> better.
> 

You have no proof he is part of any MS FUD team. The only evidence I see
here is that he find MS's arguments more convincing, that's all. Don't
get me wrong, I found Rob's post pretty good (although commenters had a
few going counter-points too), and I think Miguel did get most of his
criticism wrong, but I think advancing these conspiracy theories is
counterproductive. A point-by-point rebuttal is a much more convincing
way to go about this things, IMHO.

> > If you want to start calling people MS Shills,
> > be ready to be called a opensource 'zealot' or 'radical'. Real useful.
> 
> Happens already.  Anything other than high praise for MS, its products, 
> policies or employees is slammed as 'bashing' or any number of names.
> 

So what? they do it, so we should too?

Carlos

> -Lars
> Lars Noodén
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